Part Two: Think Dirty: The Paul Bernardo Connection;

MR. MARK SANDLER: FIRST OF ALL, WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE USE OF THE PHRASE AND WHAT, IN YOUR VIEW, DID IT REFER TO?

DR. JAMES YOUNG: I DOUBT ANYONE WOULD WANT TO TAKE OWNERSHIP FOR IT NOW, BUT I CAN TELL YOU I WON'T TAKE OWNERSHIP. I DON'T KNOW WITH CERTAINTY. I MEAN, I SUPPOSE THE PERSON WHO USED IT THE MOST OFTEN WAS DR. CAIRNS, BUT I REALLY DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM WITH ANY CERTAINTY. WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THAT POINT IN TIME --"

FORMER CHIEF CORONER DR. JAMES YOUNG TO THE GOUDGE INQUIRY;

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MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: DO YOU NOT ACCEPT, DR. CAIRNS, THAT AT THE VERY LEAST, THE LANGUAGE "THINKING DIRTY" MAY SUGGEST A LACK OF OBJECTIVITY, A MIND-SET THAT MAY CONCLUDE THAT THERE IS FOUL PLAY WHERE, INDEED, THERE ISN'T ANY?

DR. CAIRNS: I THINK THERE IS A VERY DISTINCT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "THINKING DIRTY" AND "ACTING DIRTY" AND I THINK "THINKING DIRTY" MEANS DO NOT ACCEPT THINGS AT FACE VALUE; CONSIDER THAT THERE -- THAT THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON...

FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF CORONER DR. JAMES CAIRNS TO THE GOUDGE INQUIRY;

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MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: NOW, THE NOTION OF HAVING A VERY HIGH INDEX OF SUSPICION AND, INDEED, THE NOTION OF THINKING DIRTY, WHAT, IF ANY, IMPACT DID THE EXPERIENCE THAT YOUR OFFICE HAVE WITH THIS CASE AND WITH FEMICIDE HAVE ON ITS APPROACH TO THE IN -- INVESTIGATION OF INFANT DEATHS?

DR. CAIRNS: I THINK ONE COULD SAY THAT IT WAS JUST TRANSPOSED FROM ONE TO THE OTHER. I FELT IT HAD A -- EXACTLY THE SAME TYPE OF -- OF IMPLICATION.

FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF CORONER DR. JAMES CAIRNS TO THE GOUDGE INQUIRY;

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In a previous post, we saw how former Chief Coroner Dr. James Young declined "to take ownership" when asked by Goudge Commission counsel Linda Rothstein who was responsible for use of the phrase "think dirty" - and referred to Dr.James Cairns as, "the person who used it the most often."

I am therefore presenting Dr. Cairn's interpretation of the phrase "think dirty" and its origins in his evidence to the Goudge Inquiry:

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: All right. And if you would be good enough to turn to page 5 of that document, I want to take you to an excerpt of some interest, I think, to the Commissioner. Page 5, please. I'm reading, Dr. Cairns, the first full sentence on that page.

"The police and the coroner are both at a scene as independent parties. While
working together they should also be prepared to vigorously, but fairly,
question each other's conclusions about the death. Everyone should be [quote]
'thinking dirty' [close quote] and not get lulled into accepting the most
obvious conclusions at the beginning of an investigation."

Now, may I ask you, Dr. Cairns, is that the first time, to you knowledge, that the expression, "thinking dirty" found its way into a Chief Coroner's Office policy?

DR. CAIRNS: Yes.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Where did you first hear that expression, Dr. Cairns?

DR. CAIRNS: I think I first heard that expression from Jack Press.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Who was he?

DR. CAIRNS: Jack Press had been a Toronto homicide officer who had -- when he retired, had moved over to be the liaison officer for Dr. Hillsdon Smith with -- with police.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And in what context did Dr. -- did -- sorry -- did Jack Press use that terminology?

DR. CAIRNS: I think probably as it's explained here, don't -- don't accept things as they are. Think of more sinister applications or there may be
a more sinister explanation.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And if we can go over the page to the last page of that memo, 623, the last sentence reads:

"This tragic case serves as an excellent example of the complexities of investigating female deaths and reminds us that we must approach all such investigations with a suspicious mind."

DR. CAIRNS: Correct.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Sorry, where is that?

Ms. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: The last page, at the bottom there, Commissioner. The last --

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Yes, I have it, thank you.

C0NTINUED BY MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN:

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And again, Dr. Cairns, was that suggestion taken to heart by the coroner's office?

DR. CAIRNS: Yes, it was, and of interest, at that particular time, given budgetary restraints, the government thought they could do away with all reconstructions and that, sort of, the policeman could be a jack of all trades, and this highlighted the need for experts in reconstruction. It helps me when I'm tied up on the 410 or the 401 for twenty-four (24) hours because you're not
allowed to understand why they have to close down the roads. And in fact, that was impetus for ensuring that these specialized services were not disbanded. And following this, I can think of at least three (3) further, shall we say, car accidents where, in fact, because of this a -- a homicide did -- was not missed. And we educated both the police and the coroners to stop using the word, "a car accident;" that there has been a -- a motor fatality. And it may be
natural causes, it may be accident, it may be suicide, but if you're subliminally are saying I've been called to a car accident, you're probably subliminally accepting it -- it is an accident. So admittedly, a major issue in terms of both coroners and police keeping an open eye in terms of is this really consistent with an accident, particularly where there was a husband and wife, or a boyfriend and a girlfriend in the vehicle, at the time.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Now, the notion of having a very high index of suspicion and, indeed, the notion of thinking dirty, what, if any, impact did the
experience that your office have with this case and with femicide have on its approach to the in -- investigation of infant deaths?

DR. CAIRNS: I think one could say that it was just transposed from one to the other. I felt it had a -- exactly the same type of -- of implication.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And we know, Dr. Cairns, that, indeed, your office was responsible for creating one (1) of the first guidelines that anyone
knows of in coroners context dealing with the investigation of sudden and unexpected infant deaths, Memorandum 631 in 1995. But before we look at that again, give the Commissioner the appropriate context; what was the climate that the Coroner's Office was responding to at that time in terms of the level of community alarm about the potential for child abuse?

DR. CAIRNS: I think the issue of child abuse in the late '80s and early '90s was just starting to become on the horizon. I, certainly, at medical school, had never been taught anything about child abuse, and most of my Canadian colleagues who had graduated in the '70s and the very early '80s had no
education about child abuse. And this was something that was -- was starting to -- to be accepted as a sad but real issue in -- in the late '80s, early '90s.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And had there been any inquests that had increased the level of concern that the OCCO had about that issue?

DR. CAIRNS: There had, and I had presided over -- over one (1) of those inquests, so that was also occurring.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: All right. Now, we've spent some time with the Commissioner going through the -- the various aspects of that memorandum. Accepting that, indeed, it was a leader in developing protocols around the investigation of sudden and unexpected child deaths at its time, do you now agree with Dr. Pollanen that in 2007, it is better for all members of the Death
Investigation Team to approach their work by thinking objectively or thinking about truth, rather than "thinking dirty"?

DR. CAIRNS: I -- I don't because I think we're playing on a semantic of words. In that directive in 1995, and if you could bring me to the tab because there is the word "think dirty", and then after that there is an explanation of what that means.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Would you turn up 090594, please? I -- I --

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Is that in this binder?

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: It's in the Coroner's Manual, sir.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: All right.

CONTINUED BY MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN:

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Dr. Cairns, I don't think there's any doubt and I don't for a moment suggest that it doesn't -- it isn't explained by meaning that one
should have a high index of suspicion, so if that was the passage that you wanted to show me to, there's no doubt about that.

DR. CAIRNS: That -- that -- that is correct, yes.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: All right. So, do I understand you to say, Dr. Cairns, that in your view this is just a difference of language that doesn't have any actual difference in meaning?

DR. CAIRNS: That -- that is exactly my position.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Do you not accept, Dr. Cairns, that at the very least, the language "thinking dirty" may suggest a lack of objectivity, a mind-set that may conclude that there is foul play where, indeed, there isn't any?

DR. CAIRNS: I think there is a very distinct difference between "thinking dirty" and "acting dirty" and I think "thinking dirty" means do not accept things at face value; consider that there -- that there is something else going on.
If -- if I could ask you to direct me to the memo put out by Dr. McLellan in 2004, once again dealing with femicide; it -- it's to try and make -- make a point on semantics of words.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Just while you're looking at that, Dr. Cairns, can I just go back and ask a couple of questions about the origination of
the phrase? When the memo that you've been taken to of June 1994 was circulated by Dr. Young, was Ontario the first to put that kind of language out to its coroners, pathologists, and policing services, or was that something that was done elsewhere at that time, or do you know?

DR. CAIRNS: I'm sorry, Commissioner, I -- I couldn't give you a definitive
answer on that.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Okay. And I took from what you said that what was being sought to be captured then was the recommendation of the coroner's counsel that one should assume all deaths are homicide until satisfied they're not, is that --

DR. CAIRNS: Absolutely.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: That's what you were trying to capture.

DR. CAIRNS: Yes. That -- that -- that was the intention, yes.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Okay.

DR. CAIRNS: They were to "think dirty" was a catchy phrase which seemed at the time to bring people's attention to it.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Right.

DR. CAIRNS: It was like the Nike swoosh; it was just a way of saying the same thing and that's -- that's where it was coming from, yes.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: In lawyers' terms, would that be captured in the notion of a presumption of guilt?

DR. CAIRNS: No. It was not presumption of guilt, it was to ensure that you haven't missed a homicide. So it would ensure that you do all the appropriate things to -- to satisfy yourself that there hasn't been a homicide.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Right.

DR. CAIRNS: Just -- I think, speaking from -- from my own point of view, if you're investigating deaths, I think the one (1) thing we want to make sure we don't do is to let homicides go undetected. And this was: Do not accept at face value things you have to consider that there may be some other explanation.

COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GOUDGE: Right.

DR. CAIRNS: But it certainly wasn't as a way of right to everybody, this is an -- automatically a homicide.

CONTINUED BY MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN:

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Dr. Cairns, you had asked me to find you the May 12, 2004, memorandum, 0408, by Dr. McLellan with respect to the issue of females dying of apparent accidental or suicidal manner in the company of a male partner. Commissioner, it's at 032431. I'm going to read to you from that, Dr. Cairns, the language I think you were suggesting was important to us. --

MR. BRIAN GOVER: I wonder --

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: -- .

MR. BRIAN GOVER: Thank you. I was going to ask that it be brought up for the witness to see.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: I think the language you were going to take me to starts at the bottom of that page, does it not?

"Whenever a female dies as a result of apparent suicide or accident where the
only witness is a male partner, past or present, the autopsy will be conducted
by a regional coroner's pathologist who currently performs homicide autopsies.
These autopsies will be conducted as if the death has taken place under
suspicious circumstances".

DR. CAIRNS: That's correct. This is a follow-up memo to the one (1) that you referred to earlier that was put out by Dr. Young. And what this is saying is at those times we were asking the coroner and the pathologist to pay note to the possibility. And here it's been added up a level in that now these autopsies will not be done locally, they will be done only at a forensic pathology centre of
excellence and will be done by a forensic pathologist. And that autopsy will be done with heightened concern that this may be a homicide and therefore the examination will be much more elaborate, including peeling back skin and doing a dry neck dissection. So this is going to a greater extent to rule out the possibility that -- that this is a homicide.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And then turning to the next page, Dr. Cairns. Would you turn to the next page, please, Registrar.

"Although this policy deals with apparent accidental and suicidal deaths, coroners and police are reminded to remain vigilant for the
possibility of foul play in every circumstance where..."

And then it sets out the problematic circumstances. And, again, that's the language that you say, as I understand it, Dr. Cairns, was mean to be captured by the expression "thinking dirty"?

DR. CAIRNS: Correct. Commissioner, if -- if I could explain to you, and this
is not in any way a flippant comment. It's a serious comment, but different people use language in a different way. And I know what Dr. McLellan is saying and
I know what Dr. Young and myself were saying. I think they're the same but they're characterized differently. I don't mean this flippantly, but I think the best way I can describe it to you is I would called a shovel a shovel; Dr. McLellan might be inclined to call it an agriculture instrument.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And that's how you explain the difference of language between this language which we've just examined which was authored by Dr.
McLellan and the third -- thinking dirty language which you and Dr. Young were accustomed to using?

DR. CAIRNS: That is correct.

MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: All right. Thank you.

Next posting: "Part Three; Think Dirty; The Paul Bernardo Connection; A perspective;"

Harold Levy...hlevy15@gmail.com;