Part One: Interrogation Of An Innocent Mother;

SERGEANT WEST: (INTERROGATION OF LIANNE GAGNON): "AND I KNOW THAT WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO DEAL WITH THIS AND YOU LOOK IN THE MIRROR IN THE MORNING, YOU SEE YOURSELF AND YET YOU CAN'T HELP BUT SEE YOUR SON TOO AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DEATH........;"

SERGEANT WEST: "THAT END OF IT - YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THESE PEOPLE, THEY'RE PROFESSIONALS WHO - THE PATHOLOGIST, THE HEAD PATHOLOGIST FOR ONTARIO. I MEAN THIS IS A MAN WHO'S NOT MAKING IDLE SPECULATION, THIS IS A MAN WHO KNOWS AND WHO HAS EMPOWERED THAT KNOWLEDGE TO US THAT HIS DEATH WAS NOT NATURAL. THAT'S THE REALITY OF IT..."

(The recently posted concise chronology for this series will hopefully help the reader negotiate this series of several postings which is called, "Interrogation of an innocent mother)":

It is hard to imagine the horror Lianne Gagnon felt on that terrible day when 11-month- old Nicholas stopped breathing after bumping his head on the underside of a sewing machine table.

Lianne and her family had to cope not only with their loss but with an autopsy and a police investigation.

To no-one's surprise, both the local coroner and the police found nothing suspicious about Nicholas' death.

But when Dr. Charles Smith came on the scene the death suddenly became suspicious.

Lianne and her family now had to cope with the exhumation of Nicholas' body and Smith's opinion - now proven to be utterly baseless - that Lianne either shook Nicholas to death or strangled him.

As a result of Smith's intervention there were more horrors to endure including an oppressive police interrogation of Lianne conducted by Sudbury Regional homicide Detectives Robert Keetch and David West at police headquarters on November 30, 1995;

The interrogation begins with innocuous questions relating to the events which occurred on the day in question.

But the interrogation later heats up when one of the officers tells Lianne
that: “If Nicholas’ death was not strictly due to a misadventure or illness or whatever... if it wasn’t purely an accidental type of thing and he had come to harm by other means... then that could be considered homicide."

At this point, Lianne agrees to proceed without a lawyer - even though she has been advised as to her rights - and the interview proceeds on a relatively even keel until Sgt. West tells Lianne that Dr. Charles Smith is involved in the case: The transcript continues as follows:

Sergeant West: Lianne, we’ve had a conversation with the coroner and head pathologist in Ontario.

Lianne Gagnon: Yeah;

Sergeant West: And the circumstances that you’ve given for Nicholas’ death do not suit the case here and that leaves myself with no doubt whatsoever that you’re responsible for his death. And what I would like to do is I would like to talk to you and understand fully how that happened. I know that would be a tremendous burden for you to carry and I think the thing to do with is that, when we make a mistake, then the thing to do is to talk about it and explain how it happened. I know that this was probably something that, I believe, was an unfortunate event that happened that day. I’m sure you had no intent to cause some harm in the morning when you got up, but I mean it’s ---

Lianne Gagnon: The only thing I can think is when he stopped breathing was flipped over and whacked him on the back and that’s the only thing I ever did to him.

Sergeant West: Well, we aren’t talking -- that doesn’t – doesn’t cover what the problem is here. And Lianne, both you and I know there is more here than what you’ve told us about.

Lianne Gagnon: Oh, God.

Sergeant West: And I think the thing is that there’s nothing you may have done that someone else might not have done in the past or hasn’t done in the past.

Lianne Gagnon: What did the coroner say?

Sergeant West: Well, his injuries aren’t consistent with what you –with what you’ve said.

Lianne Gagnon: He had injuries?

Sergeant West: Well, ---

Lianne Gagnon: Because they told us he didn’t;

Sergeant West: He has --- when the coroner re-examined the case there’s no doubt in the pathologist’s mind that Nicholas did not die of natural cause. And ---

Lianne Gagnon: Did I mention in the morning when I take a shower I put him in the bathroom with me and lie him on his pillows with his bottle of milk after his food. That day when I had gotten out of the shower he had gotten into the cupboard and he was playing in the Spic and Span. And I asked the coroner that day if any had gotten into his system, did he poison himself with that?

Sergeant West: No, this isn’t a case of poisoning and I mean you’re the person who know exactly what happened here with him and I think you are the person who can fill us in on the circumstances. I think that when I look at it in the great scheme of things that perhaps being a parent himself, I understand that some days when you’re with a child the strain can get very hard to take. Almost like a – you exceed your threshold to deal with them if the child is crying a lot or if he won’t be satisfied then you do things in retrospect that you --- with you hadn’t done. And that’s what happened to Nicholas here. And I mean, I’m not – this wasn’t a case here that in the morning when you got up that you intended to do him harm. This is a case of something that happened at the spur of the moment in a fit of frustration.

Lianne Gagnon: I didn’t think of anything;

Sergeant West: It’s something that happened in a –you know, almost like the twinkling of an eye. I myself can see how it can happen if you are there. I mean things back up on a small basis, ,you’re there. And maybe you know he’s playing on the floor and he’s a little bit cranky and upset and you try and keep him happy and the juice spills and then something else happens and gradually things build up until your threshold that you can’t –you can’t stand anymore. And then you don’t have anybody there with you in order to ease the burden. I mean as a single parent you don’t have someone else there to help you with it. I think, you know for – when we do something wrong as people – you’re starting out as a very young person. And I know that when you are trying to deal with this and you look in the mirror in the morning, you see yourself and yet you can’t help but see your son too and you know that you are responsible for his death. And if you don’t come to terms with that and explain, you know, why and how for his sake as well as your own sake that happened. You’re going to be carrying this untruth with you for the rest of your life. And people can’t do that, you can take something – your basically a good person and you can try and cover over what happened and you can try and set it aside, but you can’t do it. I’m sure that if he – if you could somehow talk to him and tell him that you would want to tell him that you are sorry, wouldn’t you? You would want to say to him, Nicholas, I’m sorry for what I did. And like I said to you, it’s not a case that you did this out of a sense of meanness or out of cruelty.

Lianne Gagnon: I didn’t do anything. I can’t think of anything ---

Sergeant West: Well, no, no, that’s not true. His injuries are such ---

Lianne Gagnon: What are they? Why can’t we know what they are?

Sergeant West: Well. His injuries are such that the most probable cause of his death was asphyxiation.”

Lianne Gagnon: Oh, my God.

Sergeant West: And I mean I think what may have happened is that you became overwrought at his crying;

Lianne Gagnon: No.

Sergeant West: And made efforts to calm him down;

Lianne Gagnon: No I didn’t;

Sergeant West: No, we know that this was’t an accidental thing. And I think the thing to do –

Lianne Gagnon: All I could – all I could think is when he stopped crying I put him in my chest to run next door. I held him tight because I was running, that’s all I could think.

Sergeant West: No, not that. That wouldn’t be sufficient for that type of thing to happen It wouldn’t happen under those types of circumstances; There is no – I think ---;

Lianne Gagnon: I want to call my mom, please. Can I call my mother, please? I want my mom and dad there.

Sergeant West: Well, you can call someone if you would like to;

Sergeant Keetch: What –Lianne, I think what we’ve done and what we’ve attempted to do here is we’ve attempted to make it – your mother and father aware of what’s going on.

Lianne Gagnon: Oh.

Sergeant Keetch: For their benefit. We – we have no intention of withholding any information from them and they will be advised of everything that we have and the circumstances surrounding what’s transpired from the investigation. What we would like to know from you – I mean, you’re the only one that was there that day and basically we want to – we need to know what happened that day.

Lianne Gagnon: I don’t know. All I can say is that’s what happened that day.

Sergeant West: There is at least one event of the day that you haven’t told us, ---

Lianne Gagnon: There isn’t;

Sergeant West: ---Lianne;

Lianne Gagnon: There isn’t. I swear.

Sergeant West: No, I think the thing is, Lianne, is you have to take stock of the direction as it sits now. You are at a point in your life where more or less the foundation of the rest of your life is being set. Your life is starting out and if you don’t take the responsibility for this you are going to be building that foundation on your life with something that is – that you are going to try and cover and harbour within yourself that you won’t be able to do successfully. And then all your life you are going to carry this knowledge with you. Now, um, I can see how if he was upset or if he was crying and, I mean, he’s there and you’re doing your best to console him –

Lianne Gagnon: No, he wasn’t;

Sergeant West: --- and he just won’t keep quiet.

Lianne Gagnon: He wasn’t;

Sergeant West: We;;, if he’s there and he’s not giving you a break more or less from your duties –

Lianne Gagnon: He was just a baby;

Sergeant West: ---then you, you know, in a moment of frustration you do something that other people have done. And, unfortunately, in this case it cost Nicholas – his life. But, I think you owe it to him and you owe it to yourself in order to acknowledge that happened. And that if you – I mean, you as a parent –it’s the last gift you can give him is to at least acknowledge how it happened so that there’s a sense of –

Lianne Gagnon: I don’t know;

Sergeant West: Sense of completeness and a sense of finality and understanding of it. If you – you’re here now with us and, I, mean this is very similar to if – making a decision in terms of being on a trip or going somewhere and you’re at a turning point here where you can talk to us and explain to us how it happened.

Lianne Gagnon: But you are asking me to say I did something I didn’t do.

Sergeant West: Well, I’m not asking you to say something you didn’t do, I’m asking you ---

Lianne Gagnon: Well, I didn’t cover his face and choke him.

Sergeant West: Well, in some manner you – you did something to give those consistent means of death with hi, And I wasn’t there to know the mechanics of it and I don’t know what caused you to do it, but I know that I’m here and I can listen to you and ---

Lianne Gagnon: And you think I’m lying.

Sergeant West: I don’t think it’s a case of lying. I think it’s a case if not telling us everything that happened. I think that if ---

Lianne Gagnon: I told you everything that happened;

Sergeant West: Why – I know – I know that you haven’t told us ---

Lianne Gagnon: But if he choked why would his jaw seize when Lynn was trying to perform CPR?

Sergeant West: That end of it – you have to understand that these people, they’re professionals who – the pathologist, the head pathologist for Ontario. I mean this is a man who’s not making idle speculation, this is a man who knows and who has empowered that knowledge to us that his death was not natural. That’s the reality of it. And I – I mean, I don’t ant to sit here and have, you know, endless rounds of speculation of what kind of natural things we both know that’s not true. It wasn’t a natural death.

Lianne Gagnon: So, you know what ‘cause I don’t.

Sergeant West: Well. No, there is both of us who know it.

Lianne Gagnon: No there isn’t. I don’t know what happened to him;

Sergeant West: There is the both of us and you’re the one who really knows exactly what happened.

Lianne Gagnon :No,I don’t.

Sergeant West: And you’re the person who is best able to explain it to us as to exactly how it happened and what led to those circumstances. I mean you’ve had a pretty hard go as a parent, being there on your own, you don’t have support. I mean, other people when they have children, if they are fortunate and they have a spouse that can spell them off. I mean they are very fortunate and I’m certain that there’s lots of times when other people have been grateful to have someone come and spell them off with their child, but in this case you didn’t have that and you didn’t have that opportunity but the reality of it is that Nicholas has paid the price for it and I think it’s time to acknowledge how that happened.

Lianne Gagnon: I don’t know. I’m sorry;

Sergeant West: And I think – it’s – well, it’s – none of us can bring him back for you unfortunately we just can’t do it;

Lianne Gagnon: I don’t know what happened;

Sergeant West: ell ---

Lianne Gagnon: If you say something, this is all I can say when he stopped crying and I hugged him, he wouldn’t catch his breath . And I hit him on the back and tried to make him breath. I held him and I held him tight in my chest, very tight because I ran and I didn’t want him to bounce and fall out of my arms. And I held him by the back and by the head and I pushed him into my chest and I ran next door and that’s the only thing I can think of.

Sergeant West: Well. I think perhaps, I mean, that might explain it, but the circumstances –I’m not saying that to explain his death in those circumstances, but I mean,if he was upset and he wouldn’t calm down and earlier in the day you had, prior to taking him to your neighbour’s you had held him close to you in an effort to be quiet ---

Lianne Gagnon: No, he stopped crying ---

Sergeant West: Well ---

Lianne Gagnon: When he stopped crying and when I looked at him the mouth was open in a cry and I was waiting for him to cry again and as I looked his eyes rolled in his head and his eyes closed and his mouth was still open and I didn’t know what to do. And it had been too long for him not to inhale and start crying again. I flipped him over and I hit him on the back, that was the only thing I could think of doing to jar him out of it and make him cry. And he just didn’t do it. And I looked at him and his eyes were closed and all I did Was grab him and run to Lynn.

Sergeant West: The thing is that maybe that’s what he did afterwards, but the part about the sewing machine being responsible for this is not true at all.

Lianne Gagnon: I never said the sewing machine was responsible;

Sergeant West: Well. I’m saying the ---

Lianne Gagnon: I saw him crying under there;

Sergeant West: --- the circumstance of him – a bang on the head is not going to cause these injuries here from hitting himself under a sewing machine. And what I’m saying to you is I don’t know what the circumstances were exactly that led up to his dying, but I know that you are responsible for them and I know that you did this and as does the pathologist;

Lianne Gagnon: inaudible;"

And so the oppressive badgering goes on and on in the same repetitive vein until Sergeant West reiterates his accusation that she did something, "that you can’t hide from,” that Lianne says she wants to call a lawyer.

At this point one of the most extraordinary exchanges I have ever heard in many decades of reporting the courts takes place;

My report of this extraordinary exchange will appear in the up-coming Blog: "Interrogation of an innocent mother: Part Two."

Harold Levy...hlevy15@gmail.com;