Part Two: Interrogation Of An Innocent Mother: Lianne and Pierre: An extraordinary exchange:

PIERRE: (LIANNE'S FIANCE): "SO YOU TOLD THEM EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED?"

LIANNE: "I TOLD THEM EVERYTHING AND HE (AN INTERROGATING OFFICER) SAYS IT'S NOT TRUE; SO NOW WHAT? IT'S MY WORD AGAINST THE PATHOLOGIST? YEAH I WONDER WHO THEY'RE GOING TO BELIEVE. THEY WEREN'T THERE. NOTHING LIKE THEY SAY IT DID."

LIANNE GAGNON TO PIERRE IN A SO-CALLED PRIVATE VIDEO-TAPED CONVERSATION AT SUDBURY POLICE HEADQUARTERS AFTER LIANNE HAS REFUSED TO PARTICIPATE ANY MORE IN THE OPPRESSIVE INTERROGATION UNTIL SHE HAS A LAWYER AND TALKS TO HER PARENTS:

(The recently posted concise chronology for this series will hopefully help the reader negotiate this series of several postings which is called, "Interrogation of an innocent mother)":

The most recent posting - "Interrogation of an innocent mother: Part One" - took us to the point where Lianne Gagnon interrupts the oppressive interrogation, refuses to continue until she has a lawyer, and insists on speaking with her parents.

At this point, the officers place her and her fiance Pierre in an interview room where they are told they can speak privately.

The transcript of their "private" conversation - now an exhibit at the Goudge Inquiry - contains the most extraordinary, most moving exchange between two human beings that I have read in decades of reporting the criminal justice system.

It takes us into the deeply wounded heart and soul of a bewildered young mother who has just been wrongly accused by police of killing her beloved child - it and shows us on a human level the immeasurable harm which caused by Dr. Charles Smith in this and all too many other cases.em>

Pierre: Lianne:

Lianne: What?

Pierre: Come sit with me. What did they say?

Lianne: I said everything that happened,everything I can remember and then when I was all done they proceeded to tell me, well, you're lying.

Pierre: Why do they say that?

Lianne: Because the coroner or whatever it is says that he was suffocated.

Pierre: But he certainly wasn't.

Lianne: Nom he wasn't. Ididn't do anything. The only time I held him to my chest was when he stopped breathing and I held him to my chest so I could run faster to get into Lynn's house so that I wouldn't drop him That's the only time I held him tight to my chest. And they're telling me that --that I was having a bad day and Nicholas was crying and so I got pissed off and I held him and Istopped him, but I choked him to death.It was the farthestfrom the truth. It was the best day we had had. We played, we went for a our walk, we played o the floor together.

Pierre: Did you explain that to him?

Lianne: Yeah. But, he wouldn't let me finish 'cause every time I tried to say something he kept saying, you know that you and I both know that's not true and you're lying. It doesn't matter what I said after that point I was -- I'm a liar. Anything I tried to say, oh, you know that's not true, oh, you know that's not true, and you owe it to Nicholas and tell the truth and...

Pierre: Why don't you come and sit over here>

Lianne: Oh, God. Now, what? Oh, God.

Pierre: So you told them everything that happened?

Lianne: I told them everything and he says it's not true. So now what? It's my word against the pathologist? Yeah I wonder who they're going to believe. They weren't there. Nothing like they say it did.

Pierre: What do they say happened?

Lianne: They figured that he was crying and getting on my nerves so I shoved his face into something to stop him from crying.

Pierre: And are they saying that you are wrong. Am I right?

Lianne: I was completely alone and no one can prove what I said. I explained the only ...I could see is that I had him in my chest and panicked for a few seconds before I ran to Lynn's, maybe thirty, forty seconds about. So they said it takes longer than that, but now now count from the time he banged his head to the time the ambulance came was about six minutes. And when he was at Lynn's and I saw him turning blue. I left for the house and I couldn't go look at him any more, so I stayed at my house and I left him there all by himself. Oh, God.

Pierre: Inaudible;

Lianne: inaudible: Oh, God. First they come and say I'm crying because I got caught or something I didn't so anything to him. And now no one will believe it.

Pierre: I believe you.

Lianne: I didn't do anything to him. I didn't do anything to him. I think I'm going to be sick.

Pierre: What did they say to you?

Lianne: They said I'm no telling the truth.

Pierre: What else did they say?

Lianne: I don't know. They really didn't say anything. They just kept saying that over and over again. And that I'm not telling the whole story and I'm trying to make excuses for it. And (inaudible) you knew the father wasn't going to be supportive and you had to do it all by yourself and maybe it just got to you that day and...He was the only thing that mattered at that point in my life. Why would I want to do anything to him? (inaudible) He was really mean. Like I said I want my mom and they said, (inaudible) you're not seventeen any more, you don't need your parents.

Pierre: Yeah, but you have the right to.

Lianne: Yeah. Well. I asked for it and they kept me in here another twenty minutes, so I refused to say anything. I figured the only way I could get somebody in here with me is if I say -- I said I want a lawyer 'cause I felt guilty or something.

Pierre: No.

Liane: And why the hell are we in this room so they can copy every friggen word I say?

Pierre: Come on.

Lianne: In my heart I know I didn't do anything, but by them accusing me I'm going to feel awful for the rest of my life;

Pierre: But you didn't do nothing wrong.

Lianne: It doesn't matter, someone's accusing me of doing something like this, I just think it -- God, it shatters everything.

Pierre: You didn't do nothing wrong/

Lianne: Yeah, well. I know that a lot of people won't. What does your uncle Leo think...he's here, he probably thinks I'm a horrible person.

Pierre: I'm sure he doesn't;

Lianne: Everything is over now. No shower. No wedding. No nothing.

Pierre: Don't worry;

Lianne: Don't worry. I've just been accused of killing my baby.

Pierre: Come on, please, don't cry. I'm always here for you.

Liane Gagnon. Yeah, but we don't know. Oh, God.

Pierre. Inaudible;

Lianne: I want to go home.

Pierre: All right;

Lianne: It's all I want. And I want to go home.

Pierre; Inaudible;

Lianne: I didn't think they were letting me go home after they told me that.

Pierre: What?

Lianne: Well. that they're accusing me of killing him, after that I thought I'd have to stay here.

Pierre. inaudible;

Lianne: No.

Pierre: Why? Why, dear?

Lianne: You know you watch T.V. and you hear about people who kill their babies and what do I say, I say fry them, you know they piss me off, like, you wouldn't believe. I can't believe people do that to their children and now they are putting me in the same boat. (inaudible); Just the way he said it, you took your son's life, now admit it. Oh, God.

Pierre: Inaudible;

Lianne: I asked for -- I asked to see somebody a long time ago and he just kept getting (inaudible).

Pierre: Who did?

Lianne: That blond guy;

Pierre: I know you didn't do anything wrong. (inaudible);

Lianne: Oh, God, when I think (inaudible) you know. Every day missing him, ever day wishing he was here, everyday I see his little baby stage, wondering how big he would be. They tell me that whenever I see a kid it's because I feel guilt, that's why I feel sad.

Pierre: What else did they tell you?

Lianne: They just made me feel like shit;

Pierre: But what else did they tell you?

Lianne: Well, like what? What do you-- that's it.

Pierre: inaudible;

Lianne: Did you talk to your dad?

Yes.

Pierre. inaudible;

Lianne; Oh, God. What?

Pierre: They said that he can't really say exactly what you said and he said that they were going to take Nicholas' body out of the ground.

Lianne: No. No. No. Why?

Pierre: inaudible;

Lianne: Oh, God, no.

Pierre: Come here.

Lianne: No;

Pierre: I guess I shouldn't have told you.

Lianne: No, no. He's already (inaudible). Oh, God, why would they do that? If this fucking pathologist is so sure why does he have to look at him again?

Pierre: Lianne, you didn't do nothing wrong.

Lianne: I know I didn't do anything wrong. Dig him from where he is, oh, God. This isn't happening;

Pierre: inaudible;

Lianne: Just go home;

Pierre; inaudible;

Lianne: Yeah. He must think you are marrying a beautiful woman.

Pierre: Come here'

Lianne: Due to the fact that he's a police officer, facts are facts according to them and he's going to think something bad about me too.

Pierre: I don't think so;

Lianne: What pisses me off is that they weren't there so they don't know, but unfortunately for me no one else was there either.

Pierre: I wish, (inaudible).

Lianne: I wish lie detectors were admissible in court. Honestly, when they told me that I tried my damnest to think if I did that to him. I tried really hard. Maybe I did and blocked it out or maybe he freaked me out with 'cause his eyes went back in his head that I did. And I was thinking so hard, but I just -- I don't remember doing that. I now I put his head, in my chest once I looked at him and the eyes went back and his eyes shut I knew something was wrong.

Pierre: You ran to Lynn's house.

Lianne: No. Once I saw that I flipped him over and whacked him in the back and tried to get him to take his air and it wasn't working. And I looked at him and his eyes were still closed and he was like a rag doll. He was limp. And that's when I put him in my chest and then ran to Lynn's then I left him with her. And I remember him turning blue and then I left. The last -- the next time I saw him was in the hospital bed and he was dead. (inaudible) the worst seeing him."Pierre: Inaudible;

Lianne: Out here.

Pierre: inaudible;"

At this point the transcript abruptly ends with the reporter's note..."whereupon video concluded."

Next posting: Interrogation of An Innocent Mother: Lianne's ordeal continues as the police make extraordinary efforts to find evidence of her guilt;

Harold Levy: hlevy15@gmail.com;