BACKGROUND: The following ABC story published earlier today details John Quigley's appearance before the Legal Practitioner's complaints committee for alleged misbehavior in connection with the Andrew Mallard case. This story provides an excellent setting for the transcript of the "Australian Story" documentary which runs below. "The shadow Attorney General John Quigley is set to front the Legal Practitioners complaints committee today," the story begins. 'He will answer a charge of bringing the legal profession into disrepute in 2002 when he threatened to reveal the identity of an undercover police officer," it continues. "Mr Quigley told the officer he would name him in parliament unless he agreed to tell the truth about his involvement with the Andrew Mallard case. Mr Mallard spent 12 years in jail for the 1994 murder of Mosman Park jeweller Pamela Lawrence, before his conviction was overturned in 2006. Mr Quigley says he does not regret his actions. "Playing a role in securing the acquittal of an innocent man who had at that stage been held in custody for some 12 years, you can't then hesitate because you know you might get a backwash," he said. He says the incident has already been reviewed by the Corruption and Crime Commission. "At the conclusion of which the Commissioner said well look whilst it's generally undesirable to say these sort of things this is an exceptional circumstance and it led to Mr Mallard's appeal getting up and he's to be commended for it," he said.
PHOTO: JOHN QUIGLEY (LEFT); ANDREW MALLARD (RIGHT);
This story can be found at:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/12/3188754.htm
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JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: What hit me like a steam train is the inequity of our justice system. If you were poor, then you had almost no chance in the criminal justice system or the courts. If you were rich - because at the time I was acting for Laurie Connell - I could see if you had wealth to hire lawyers to spend as much time preparing the case, you had a reasonable chance of acquittal. In legal practice I would have had a team of people helping me, so I rang each of the law schools and asked if a student would like to volunteer to help.........
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Because when I looked at the file, I discovered within the file evidence that proved that the murder weapon could not have been the murder weapon and that meant the whole trial was conducted on a false basis. The police and people at the DPP had managed to keep secret from the court and even from the High Court, the truth. The Attorney-General then referred Andrew's case back to the Court of Appeal, but in yet another gross miscarriage of justice in Western Australia, the Court of Appeal refused the appeal and we resolved to take the matter to the High Court.........
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: I understood that it was obviously huge, that it was draining him, that it was taking its toll. His every minute, and every second of that minute, was preoccupied with how he was going to achieve the end that he needed to achieve, which was to get an innocent man out of jail.........
OHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I transgressed the cardinal rule of police. You don't give up a brother. You don't lag on a brother. They had inducted me as a life member of the union and had an expectation that I would not go round revealing, publicizing corruption on their part. And I did in the Mallard matter.........
TRANSCRIPT: MR. QUIGLEY'S QUANDARY: 4 APRIL, 2011. "AUSTRALIAN STORY DOCUMENTARY."
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BACKGROUND: WIKIPEDIA;
Andrew Mallard is a Western Australian who was wrongfully convicted of murder in 1995 and sentenced to life imprisonment. He was released from prison in 2006 after his conviction was quashed by the High Court of Australia. Mallard had been convicted of the murder of Pamela Lawrence, a business proprietor, who was killed at her shop, on 23 May 1994. The evidence used in Mallard's trial was scanty and obscure, and it was later revealed that police withheld vital information from his defence team. Almost twelve years later, after an appeal to the High Court, his conviction was quashed, and a re-trial ordered. However, the charges against him were dropped and Mallard was released. At the time, the Director of Public Prosecutions stated that Andrew Mallard remained the prime suspect and that if further evidence became available he could still be prosecuted. In 2006 police conducted a review of the investigation and subsequently a cold case review. As a result they uncovered sufficiently compelling evidence to charge convicted murderer Simon Rochford with the murder of Pamela Lawrence and to eliminate Andrew Mallard as a person of interest. After being publicly named as a suspect, Simon Rochford was found dead in his cell in Albany Prison, having committed suicide. The Western Australian Commission on Crime and Corruption investigated whether there was misconduct by any public officer (police, prosecutors or Members of Parliament) associated with this case and made findings against two policeman and a senior prosecutor. A book about the case, "Murderer No More: Andrew Mallard and the Epic Fight that Proved his Innocence" was written by Colleen Egan, the journalist who campaigned on Mallard's behalf for eight years. It was published by Allen & Unwin in June 2010
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CAROLINE JONES, PRESENTER: Tonight's program is about a lawyer and politician whose three decades in the public spotlight have drawn controversy, enmity and notoriety. John Quigley has been widely praised for his four year battle to free a man called Andrew Mallard, who infamously spent 12 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. But it's come at a steep personal price for John Quigley, who now finds himself in the dock facing professional misconduct charges. To some he's a traitor, to others, a hero. This is John Quigley's story.
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: Living with John is like being a character in an American television series where the drama and the plot and the characters are so unbelievable and so extreme that you can't really consider it reflects real life. And there's conspiracies and there is revenge. It is so far-fetched that sometimes you think, can this be real, can this actually be someone's life?
HYLTON QUAIL, WA LAW SOCIETY PRESIDENT: John Quigley is one of our best criminal lawyers, shadow Attorney-General, and a loose cannon, but a cannon that has the unerring ability to hit targets anyway, big targets. When you light the fuse, you want to run. You don't want to be standing anywhere nearby because there's a pretty good chance it might blow up and there'll be a lot of collateral damage.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: My friends call me mad, mainly. They say, you're mad. Why have you started a family at the age of 61 and married a girl who's 34 years younger than you? Do you realise that, you're mad. But mainly I'm just as mad as hell. I want to open up the window and say, I'm as mad as hell at what you're doing to our legal system in Western Australia! I'm as mad as hell what you corrupt police are doing to the reputation of the Western Australian police service.
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: He is just a force of nature, and he is, he's a bit odd. Sometimes you just feel like saying, whoa down. Stop it and don't make things worse for yourself. But Quigley is Quigley.
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: John and I met and from that very moment I knew that he was one of the most amazing people I could ever come across in my life. He brings to your world things that other people lack. Obviously John does go to the extreme and there's always a case when people go to an extreme that they might go too far. It's never for his own personal benefit. It's never with the intention of causing anyone else serious and extreme harm. It's always a case that he wants to right a wrong.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Do I think I go too far at times? You can't... people say you can't take on city hall and win. Well I accept that, they're going to get you in the end and they'll probably get me, they're never going to give up on me, but you've got to fight for the little man. You've got to fight for the little man. Who else is going to fight for him? I decided I wanted to study law because I was inspired by a book I'd read on the life of Abraham Lincoln who had himself come to the law a little late. He was always advocating for the underclass and especially for the freeing of the slaves, and he went on to become the president of America and this book just set my mind on fire, that you could start from nowhere and achieve all of this. I found it very inspirational and so I set about enrolling at night school whilst I was a truck driver and shooting for law school, which I made. I'm also mindful that Abraham Lincoln was assassinated and a lot of people who advocate for the underclass, challenge the system, and therefore, you've got to expect a backlash from the system. And then I decided to get some training in criminal law and so I went to a practice that did a lot of criminal law. They had the Police Union as one of their major clients and I never thought about it really, but I just ended up as the Police Union lawyer.
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: John represented the Police Union for about 20, 25 years. He represented policemen, prison officers, drug squad officers, and he did a very, very good job for them. He was an advocate for police, both in the courts, on the radio, on the television and he was inextricably linked with representing police officers. He also represented some other high profile people like Brian Burke, the former Labor premier, at the WA Inc Royal Commission, so he was really one of the top flight solicitors and barristers in Perth. He's always been a bit different, a bit on the outside. He wasn't a QC, although he was a better lawyer than so many other QCs in town because he just wasn't one of the establishment.
HYLTON QUAIL, WA LAW SOCIETY PRESIDENT: There's no doubt that John polarises people. The legal profession is fairly conservative. I don't think it's any secret that, you know, in the course of his career he has had fights with many lawyers around town, partners, adversaries, for one reason or another. But it's always in the pursuit of a higher principle. He's fighting hard for what he believes in. When he's involved in a matter it consumes and obsesses him.
PHILIP URQUHART, CRIMINAL LAWYERS ASSN PRESIDENT: If you wanted a dog-fight in court, John was the go-to man. I first came across John when I was at the WA DPP as a prosecutor. To put it bluntly, I probably would describe him as, at that time, an absolute, utter mongrel. But then again, that's probably the highest compliment a prosecutor could pay a defence lawyer.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: People got off. People say, that person shouldn't have got off. There we have it. I've got officers off where I was surprised they got off.
JIM MCGINTY, FORMER WA ATTORNEY-GENERAL: John Quigley, before he came to the Parliament, did some extraordinary things for the Police Union and the police in Western Australia, getting people acquitted who arguably should have been convicted. In the case of John Pat, a young Aboriginal man in Roebourne in Western Australia's north-west, he died in custody.
(Excerpt of ABC News)
DAVID MARR, REPORTER: The fight was provoked by an off duty policeman and he was punched and hit his head on the ground. He was then taken in a paddy wagon to the lockup at Roebourne. He was assaulted by police in the yard of the lockup.
REPORTER: The coroner's inquest found that John Pat died as a result of head injuries.
(End of excerpt)
JIM MCGINTY, FORMER WA ATTORNEY-GENERAL: John Quigley took up cudgels, not on the side of right, but for the people who were paying him, and he used all of his skills to achieve an acquittal for them, or no charges to be laid against them. It resulted in a grave injustice to particularly the family of John Pat who died, and to the Aboriginal people in Western Australia and then led to, in part, to the whole inquiry into Aboriginal deaths in custody.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I've got no regrets about the advocacy or defence work I did for the Western Australian Police Union even though there were allegations of corruption against many of my clients. So long as you know that you're not advancing a lie, or so long as you know you're not advancing an untrue position then there is nothing wrong in a person being defended.
JIM MCGINTY, FORMER WA ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I think since coming into Parliament, John Quigley's been far more on the side of angels than he ever has before in his life.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: In law I was earning good money, I was working very, very hard, but also I had the biggest failure of my life. I failed as a husband and father to look after my marriage and I don't think there's a worse thing that a man can do than to allow work to overtake family life, but I did and my marriage failed and I lived by myself for many years. I had reached a point in my life where I wasn't feeling fulfilled in the law. I just had a sense there was something more for me to do in life. And at that time there was a dysfunctional corruption commission which has now been dismantled, called the ACC, which were treating the police in Western Australia in a very unfair manner, denying them natural justice, it was very unjust, unjust situation. So I determined to go into Parliament and change the system to improve it for Western Australian police because I'd seen so many police families destroyed. The fissure in the relationship, or the break in the relationship between myself and the police really started before I knew.
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: This great alliance that he'd had and built up for so many years and profited from, and they both had profited from, was falling apart and it was being ripped apart really because of the Mallard case and because of John's advocacy for Andrew Mallard.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: After entering Parliament I was approached by Colleen Egan on the Andrew Mallard case, to help Andrew Mallard. She explained to me that she had a murder case that she was looking into that she didn't believe the right person had been convicted. So when she brought me all these boxes I'd made myself a little promise, because I was living by myself and had been for many years, I made myself a little promise that this is what I'd do over lent. And after Easter I rang her and she asked me, what do you think? And I said, Mallard's innocent.
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: So it was a real other side of the coin once he started working for Andrew and started prosecuting against the police and using the information that he'd gathered as someone who represented officers who weren't acting properly.
(Excerpt of ABC News, 1994)
REPORTER: One of Mrs Lawrence's two daughters placed a floral tribute at the door of the Glyde Street jewellery shop this morning. Mrs Lawrence had been found by her husband yesterday evening at the rear of the shop, brutally bashed.
(End of excerpt)
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Andrew by this stage had been in prison for about eight years. He had been convicted of the murder of Pamela Lawrence in her Mosman Park jewellery shop in 1994.
(Excerpt of Australian Story, 2010):
ANDREW MALLARD: I was down on my luck. I was vulnerable. I was living on the streets. I was trying to survive.
(End of excerpt)
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: At the time he was itinerant, homeless and behaving so oddly. He was obviously in need of care and so he was hospitalised in the Graylands psychiatric hospital when the police first interviewed him.
(Excerpt of Australian Story, 2010 continues):
ANDREW MALLARD: I was already incarcerated into a maximum security mental health ward. I was already in a state of complete - what the hell is going on? I mean, then there's police asking me about a murderer, you know, a murder. What's going on?
(End of excerpt)
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: John felt very angry and he was in tears a couple of times when he spoke to me about how he could see this mentally vulnerable man had been treated.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: What hit me like a steam train is the inequity of our justice system. If you were poor, then you had almost no chance in the criminal justice system or the courts. If you were rich - because at the time I was acting for Laurie Connell - I could see if you had wealth to hire lawyers to spend as much time preparing the case, you had a reasonable chance of acquittal. In legal practice I would have had a team of people helping me, so I rang each of the law schools and asked if a student would like to volunteer to help.
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: The dean of the law school approached me and asked me if I would be interested in assisting a member of Parliament with a pro bono matter, which I was extremely keen to do. I had great interest in criminal law in particular. I was extremely green, I was extremely idealistic and naive. I didn't particularly know who Mr Quigley was, so it was all quite new and quite exciting. His decision making was extremely rapid and very quick. It was a case of, you were going to the prison now and you were going to get certain information from Mr Mallard, and it didn't matter how you were dressed or what plans you had or any of your potential anxieties or insecurity as a final year law school student, you were in the car before you could actually think about what you were doing.
(Excerpt from ABC News, 2002)
REPORTER: Allegations have surfaced that an undercover officer plied Mallard with drugs and alcohol two days before his videotaped confession.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The conduct of the police has been both vile and repugnant.
(End of excerpt)
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I had worked out that there'd been an undercover operation running in this. I knew from my work for the Western Australian Police Union that if there was dirt in this case, if there was the hiding of evidence and bad things happening, the undercover officer was going to be at the centre of the action. Always is.
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: Andrew had told us that there was a man named Gary who appeared on the scene suddenly after he'd first been interviewed by police and had befriended him, had given him high quality cannabis, had given him a bong to smoke it with. Had driven him around and given him accommodation and so we assumed that this was the undercover operative. And he smokes dope nonstop for three or four days in his company and they take him straight back into an interview room. So the second interview that he does and the video which is used to convict him is done after he's been smoking dope flat out for three or four days in the company of this undercover operative, and that was never, ever disclosed to the court, it was never told to the jury, it was never told to the defence lawyer.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: So it was crucial to get hold of the undercover officer. By this time Colleen and the people that had been helping her had tracked down the undercover officer - remarkable turn of events - and handed me his phone number.
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: You need so much to overturn an old conviction and we believed that this person had information that Andrew was fitted up. So John was getting on the phone to him and saying, go to the Police Royal Commission. Tell them everything you know.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: After the first two phone calls, he wouldn't answer the phone. So I knew my phone calls were being recorded. I knew all these tapes would be going straight to police headquarters and I wanted police headquarters to understand that there was no way I was pulling back.
(Excerpt of phone conversation)
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I've now got enough evidence to name you in Parliament. And I'm not going to let this person rot in jail for 30 years any longer.
(End of excerpt)
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: John was holding press conferences up at Parliament House. If he wants to achieve something he just won't stop at anything in order to do that. So he does take a 'take no prisoners' approach to things, which can be a bit scary to watch and be a part of, as it was with me with the Mallard inquiry, or the Mallard case. But he gets things done, and in the circumstances that we were in with an innocent man in jail behind bars, he was just the person for the job.
(Excerpt from ABC News, June 2002)
REPORTER: Quigley had a warning for bent police.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: They're not going to look after you fellas. From here on it's every man for himself. It's going tummy up on you, okay?
(End of excerpt)
JIM MCGINTY, FORMER WA ATTORNEY-GENERAL: John Quigley threatened to go in and expose a police undercover officer in Parliament. In order to try and dissuade him from doing that, I facilitated his access to the DPP's files on the murder of Pamela Lawrence for which Andrew Mallard was wrongfully convicted. It was most probably the moment in which the whole freeing of Andrew Mallard became a reality. That was most probably the seminal moment.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Because when I looked at the file, I discovered within the file evidence that proved that the murder weapon could not have been the murder weapon and that meant the whole trial was conducted on a false basis. The police and people at the DPP had managed to keep secret from the court and even from the High Court, the truth. The Attorney-General then referred Andrew's case back to the Court of Appeal, but in yet another gross miscarriage of justice in Western Australia, the Court of Appeal refused the appeal and we resolved to take the matter to the High Court.
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: I understood that it was obviously huge, that it was draining him, that it was taking its toll. His every minute, and every second of that minute, was preoccupied with how he was going to achieve the end that he needed to achieve, which was to get an innocent man out of jail.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I was 54 and she was 21. We worked together for about two or three months and then she cheekily asked me whether I was gay. And that took me back a bit. I said, why do you ask? And she said, well, we've been working for a couple of months and you've never got fresh or tried to hit on me.
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: The effect he had on me was like nothing I had ever... and I was sure I would never experience it, despite obviously how young I was. I was certainly of the view that there was chemistry but John was over the top platonic.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: She's a very strong willed woman and ultimately she told me that I would marry her but I had to ask her in romantic circumstances at an appropriate time henceforth.
(Excerpt from John and Michelle's wedding, October 2004)
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I John Robert Quigley, take you Michelle Clare Stronach, to be my lawful wife.
(End of excerpt)
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: At our wedding Andrew was still in jail so that was a big thing on John's shoulders.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: We were hoping that Andrew would be well and truly out for our wedding because he was sort of, I suppose, pivotal. Although he didn't bring us together, this whole incident brought us together. We were hoping he would be able to attend our wedding.
(Excerpt from wedding)
CELEBRANT: Would you welcome please into our community, newly married, John and Michelle, Mr and Mrs John Quigley.
(End of excerpt)
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: The relationship with the police was under stress at the time we got married and probably the start of real tension. The lead-up to our wedding, a situation arose where John was in his motor vehicle and pulled over by several police cars, both undercover officers and marked cars for what was alleged to be a failure to use an indicator. They then try a personal attack in saying to the media a woman was fleeing from his car that wasn't me. It's my first marriage, it's my wedding of my dreams. And then the police make a police statement to say there wasn't a woman in John's car. I knew there wasn't a woman running from John's car before it, at the moment it was out there.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I transgressed the cardinal rule of police. You don't give up a brother. You don't lag on a brother. They had inducted me as a life member of the union and had an expectation that I would not go round revealing, publicizing corruption on their part. And I did in the Mallard matter.
(Excerpt from ABC NEWS, November 2004)
REPORTER: Staff arrived at Mr Quigley's Scarborough office this morning to find two windows had been smashed. A french door at his home in Trigg was also broken. Mr Quigley is away on his honeymoon after his wedding yesterday.
(End of excerpt)
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: Our entire relationship I have seen John under attack. Our life has been a roller coaster. It is nothing less than an extreme ride where there is huge highs and massive lows and corners at speeds that you hope there is a driver and you hope there is going to be a safe ending and not a crash or a derailing.
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: What a lot of people don't know is that during a lot of the time that he was advocating for Andrew Mallard, John had been struck down by a very rare and very dangerous form of cancer - a kind of cancer that comes out in the skin. It's rare and deadly and he was diagnosed with that just before the High Court appeal.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I started to get a lot of itches. I then started to come out in a rash so then I went to see a dermatologist and he said, you've got mycosis fungoides. And that sounded like an allergy to me so I said, what, have I got to stop drinking beer and eating walnuts? And he said, John, John, John. It's T-cell lymphoma. Yeah, that was a hard time. Look, I've done a lot and I'd had three children by then but I was just madly in love and I had to tell my bride that I was terminal.
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: I was hysterical with grief.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: And it was just so sad. She just fell over, fell over on the floor of the Parliament.
SCREEN TEXT: Next week.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: When you face your mortality, it is frightening and sobering.
COLLEEN EGAN, JOURNALIST: People don't realise how close to death he came.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The sort of things that the police had in mind for me, that is, that I'd be charged, arrested and jailed, sort of paled a bit.
RUSSELL ARMSTRONG, POLICE UNION PRESIDENT: I think John may be paranoid. There is no vendetta from the Police Union.
ANDREW MALLARD: I mean John Quigley is the white knight here. He saved my life.
MICHELLE QUIGLEY, WIFE: Ruby was only 12 days old when we were advised she had a very rare inborn error of metabolism.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: So that all just adds to everything.
(Excerpt of video footage showing police using a Taser on Kevin Spratt)
POLICE OFFICER: Now put your arm out straight and don't move.
(End of excerpt)
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The use of the Taser could not be described as anything else but torture.
RUSSELL ARMSTRONG: John Quigley can say what he likes but Mr Spratt has a history.
JOHN QUIGLEY, WA SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That just got me going. That's like the ball being kicked high into the back line mate. There was no way I was going to miss this ball.
ROB JOHNSON, POLICE MINISTER (in Parliament): He is a media tart, that's all he is. He goes around... all he's interested in is getting his face in front, his mug in front of the TV cameras.
JOHN MCGINTY: In the case of both Mallard and Spratt, it was John Quigley versus the rest of the world.
The transcript can be found at:
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2011/s3182022.htm?site=melbourne
PUBLISHER'S NOTE: The Toronto Star, my previous employer for more than twenty incredible years, has put considerable effort into exposing the harm caused by Dr. Charles Smith and his protectors - and into pushing for reform of Ontario's forensic pediatric pathology system. The Star has a "topic" section which focuses on recent stories related to Dr. Charles Smith. It can be found at:
http://www.thestar.com/topic/charlessmith
For a breakdown of some of the cases, issues and controversies this Blog is currently following, please turn to:
http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=120008354894645705&postID=8369513443994476774
Harold Levy: Publisher; The Charles Smith Blog; hlevy15@gmail.com;
