INTERVIEW: "Controversial police tactic under the spotlight;" A Radio New Zealand (RNZ) interview with Mike White - the accomplished journalist who exposed the mysterious interviewing technique known as 'Complex Investigation Phased Engagement Model', or CIPEM.
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BACKGROUND: "In 2022, the case against three men accused of murdering Upper Hutt woman Lois Tolley fell over after a judge ruled evidence - including a confession - had been improperly obtained, and was inadmissible in court. Part of the reason was the use of a mysterious interviewing technique called the Complex Investigation Phased Engagement Model, or CIPEM. Now an international expert who validated the interviewing technique says her conclusions were wrong and it doesn't meet international standards for evidence-gathering. Journalist Mike White has been investigating the issue for Stuff and speaks to Nights about the latest developments.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/nights/audio/2018940194/the-controversial-police-tactic-under-the-spotlight
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PUBLISHER'S NOTE: This Blog is interested in false confessions because of the disturbing number of exonerations in the USA, Canada and multiple other jurisdictions throughout the world, where, in the absence of incriminating forensic evidence the conviction is based on self-incrimination – and because of the growing body of scientific research showing how vulnerable suspects are to widely used interrogation methods such as the notorious ‘Reid Technique.’ As all too many of this Blog's post have shown, I also recognize that pressure for false confessions can take many forms, up to and including physical violence, even physical and mental torture.
Harold Levy: Publisher; The Charles Smith Blog:
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PASSAGE OF THE DAY: "One of Schollum’s most damning criticisms of CIPEM is her belief now that it had elements of the widely discredited Reid Technique for interviewing, particularly relating to rationalising, minimising and justifying the suspect’s actions in an effort to get them to admit what they’d done. New Zealand police use the internationally accepted PEACE interviewing model, which rejects the American-developed Reid Technique. Schollum had early concerns that elements of the Reid Technique were present in CIPEM, but said she allowed herself to be convinced the CIPEM manual had just been badly written and was ambiguous. She said that after Fitzgerald told her he would correct this, she deemed CIPEM was compatible with PEACE, rather than a hybrid that included Reid Technique elements. “But I don’t think that conclusion is correct. And from a professional point of view, I’m sorry that I came to that [conclusion].”
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STORY: "'I feel foolish': Expert admits she was wrong about controversial police tactic," by investigative reporters Mike White and Blair Ensor, published by The Press, on May 25, 2024.
PHOTO CAPTION: "Police interviewed a woman using the controversial CIPEM technique while reinvestigating the suspicious 1985 death of 1-year-old Penny-Tui Taputoro."
GIST: "In 2021, a 'world leader’ in interviewing found a new police technique complied with international standards. Now, in a bombshell interview, she says she wasn’t right. Mike White and Blair Ensor report.
The international expert who validated a controversial police interviewing technique now says her conclusions were wrong, and she feels foolish for allowing herself to be convinced there were no problems with it.
In a dramatic about-face, Dr Mary Schollum now says the Complex Investigation Phased Engagement Model (CIPEM) she reviewed has elements of a widely derided interview technique, doesn’t meet international standards, and her report would have been very different if police had provided her with all the information about the model.
However, CIPEM’s creator, former detective superintendent Tom Fitzgerald, continues to defend the interviewing and “suspect targeting system”, and insists he is cooperating with police, and an Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) investigation into complaints about CIPEM.
The technique was formally created by Fitzgerald in 2018, but was kept secret for more than three years until its existence was revealed publicly by Stuff.
It was mainly designed for use in cold cases, with the aim of putting suspects at ease in a relaxed environment in the hope they would talk, and helped secure convictions in one murder investigation - the brutal 1995 killing of pregnant Christchurch mother Angela Blackmoore.
But Fitzgerald asked Schollum, whom he described as a “world leader” in investigative interviewing, to review CIPEM after it led to a false confession during the investigation into the 2016 murder of Upper Hutt woman Lois Tolley, and its use in that case was excoriated by a High Court judge.
In November 2021, Schollum completed her review of CIPEM, concluding it was consistent with international best practice. Police paid $9700 for the review.
However, Schollum now says she has seen other CIPEM-related documents, and, while parts of CIPEM were good, she has admitted making a mistake by validating the technique.
“Yes, I hold my hand up and have to say that I now feel the conclusions that I reached were wrong. “I feel a bit stupid now. And all I can really say in my defence is that I did my review and that final report in good faith, but some of the conclusions are not right.”
Schollum, who was employed by New Zealand Police in a number of roles until 2007, but is now based in England, told Stuff her review was based on only a small amount of documents, and nothing that showed how CIPEM was used in practice. (By then, suspects in five homicides had been interviewed using the technique.)
“And I’m a researcher, through and through, and I feel foolish that I didn’t say, ‘Well, look, I can’t really do a thorough job, on the basis of such limited information.’”
Schollum said when she asked for more documents, such as interview transcripts, and Justice France’s stinging judgement in the Tolley case, police refused them.
Having now seen this information, Schollum said her view of CIPEM had changed considerably.
“In one way, you can look at a limited amount of information, on paper, but if you’ve had no idea how that translates into practice, as you say, it’s kind of trying to do something with one hand tied behind your back.”
If she had been provided with practical examples of how CIPEM was used, she says “it would have been a whole different report”.
It also appears Schollum wasn’t given another extensive CIPEM document that Stuff obtained under the Official Information Act in February this year, after intercession from the Ombudsman.
When passages from this were quoted to Schollum, she said: “I would have to say, I agree with your interpretation. It has crossed a line. It’s not what an interviewer can or should say.”
Schollum, who has been interviewed as part of the IPCA’s investigation, indicated she felt she had been swayed to some extent by the enthusiasm surrounding CIPEM within the police.
“And I’ve been passionate about investigative interviewing for 25 years, so it’s always heartening for me to meet people who are also enthusiastic about it,” she said.
“And perhaps that just kept the rose-coloured spectacles on a bit longer than they should have been.”
When asked if she felt she was misled, Schollum said she didn’t want to go that far at this stage.
“All I can say is that at the time I wrote the report, I didn’t have all the information in front of me that I now have.
“And maybe I didn’t ask the right questions.”
Previously, Schollum said she had the utmost respect for Fitzgerald, and his knowledge of investigative interviewing.
When asked if her view had changed, Schollum said she didn’t want to comment while the IPCA investigation was ongoing.
“I’ve questioned myself in terms of the conclusions I came to, because I know a lot more now. But no, I’m not willing to say anything about Tom.”
One of Schollum’s most damning criticisms of CIPEM is her belief now that it had elements of the widely discredited Reid Technique for interviewing, particularly relating to rationalising, minimising and justifying the suspect’s actions in an effort to get them to admit what they’d done.
New Zealand police use the internationally accepted PEACE interviewing model, which rejects the American-developed Reid Technique.
Schollum had early concerns that elements of the Reid Technique were present in CIPEM, but said she allowed herself to be convinced the CIPEM manual had just been badly written and was ambiguous.
She said that after Fitzgerald told her he would correct this, she deemed CIPEM was compatible with PEACE, rather than a hybrid that included Reid Technique elements.
“But I don’t think that conclusion is correct. And from a professional point of view, I’m sorry that I came to that [conclusion].”
Schollum also strongly questions mistakes made by CIPEM team members in not doing basic things like recording all interactions with suspects, something Fitzgerald had previously been strongly criticised for by the Supreme Court, and occurred again during interviews in the Tolley investigation, conducted by two CIPEM detectives, and monitored by Fitzgerald.
Fitzgerald also interacted off-camera with Rebecca Wright-Meldrum, a suspect in Blackmoore’s murder, after she was interviewed using CIPEM, and had asked to speak to a lawyer.
“And I have to ask myself why very experienced police officers made certain fundamental errors, such as not keeping records and notes, and not covering what happened during breaks, and things like that,” Schollum told Stuff.
“How did it not get put down to have a proper evaluation? How did experienced police officers come to do things that went against years of training and knowledge?
“I would hope it wasn’t a matter of being convinced that somebody is guilty, and being excited at perhaps having this fantastic new model which would allow them to get a confession - because that again would go against all of their training and knowledge, and what’s acceptable, and isn’t.
“Because, in fact, the training is that during breaks you make sure you don’t speak about the case at all.”
When Schollum saw those mistakes being repeated, “I guess you do scratch your head.”
As well as speaking with the IPCA, Schollum said police were aware of her concerns about CIPEM and that she no longer stood by her report’s conclusions.
“I just need to always try to remain true to myself.”
In response to a series of questions from Stuff this week, Fitzgerald said “to the best of my knowledge”, Schollum was given a “dedicated liaison point”, access to those involved in CIPEM, and any further information she required, while conducting her 2021 review of the technique.
He understood that included all CIPEM final documents, as well as Justice France’s comments, and “she spoke with me and others involved in respect of those findings”.
Fitzgerald insisted CIPEM did not “include any of the well-criticised ‘Reid techniques’”, which he remained “very critical” of.
“CIPEM is [in] no way guilt-presumptive or deceptive. CIPEM aims to put interviewees at ease to facilitate dialogue, build a relationship, obtain the truth, and enhance the prospect of re-engagement.”
Importantly, he said, CIPEM training looked at how “human beings use rationalisation, minimisation, and justification to live with their behaviour and decisions”.
Fitzgerald acknowledged “errors can occur with all interviewing systems”, including PEACE. Recording of information, and explaining off-camera interactions was expected as part of CIPEM, and “many” PEACE interviews here and abroad had received the same criticism.
In the Blackmoore case, Fitzgerald said, his off-camera conversation with Wright-Meldrum happened after her interview had concluded and “was an invitation to re-engage in the future”.(After this interaction, which happened outside the police station while Wright-Meldrum had a cigarette, it appeared Fitzgerald took her back to the interview room, where she was left alone for 11 minutes, with the police video still recording her, despite police having told Wright-Meldrum it was going to be turned off after the interview finished.
Wright-Meldrum’s 2023 trial heard Fitzgerald initially told police he made no notes of the interaction, but later said he had a notebook, but couldn’t find it.)
A police spokesperson said police became aware of Schollum’s concerns about her review before Christmas last year, and referred them to the IPCA in January.
They refused to answer a series of questions from Stuff while the IPCA’s investigation was ongoing.
Last week, IPCA investigations manager Stu Graham said he was unable to say when the findings of the watchdog’s investigation would be made public.
“We have completed our investigation phase and are doing our analysis and drafting,” Graham said.
The analysis could spark further inquiries, he added.
Stuff’s three-year investigation of CIPEM has seen it successfully take two High Court actions to obtain information about the technique, as well as make numerous Official Information Act requests and complaints to the Ombudsman.
In December 2023, following a request for more information about CIPEM, the Ombudsman said police had tried to find answers, but “Mr Fitzgerald has declined to engage with police on this request”.
When this was put to Fitzgerald this week, he said: “Any suggestion that I have not continued to assist the police and/or the IPCA is completely false.”
Fitzgerald retired unexpectedly from the police in October 2022. He stressed it had been planned for some time, and had nothing to do with scrutiny of CIPEM.
In the wake of concerns about CIPEM, police launched a review of all interviewing, the findings of which have yet to be made public."
The entire story can be read at:
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgzQVwnTBLPRrczbHzplhPxNQrLkC
PUBLISHER'S NOTE: I am monitoring this case/issue/resource. Keep your eye on the Charles Smith Blog for reports on developments. The Toronto Star, my previous employer for more than twenty incredible years, has put considerable effort into exposing the harm caused by Dr. Charles Smith and his protectors - and into pushing for reform of Ontario's forensic pediatric pathology system. The Star has a "topic" section which focuses on recent stories related to Dr. Charles Smith. It can be found at: http://www.thestar.com/topic/charlessmith. Information on "The Charles Smith Blog Award"- and its nomination process - can be found at: http://smithforensic.blogspot.com/2011/05/charles-smith-blog-award-nominations.html Please send any comments or information on other cases and issues of interest to the readers of this blog to: hlevy15@gmail.com. Harold Levy: Publisher: The Charles Smith Blog.
SEE BREAKDOWN OF SOME OF THE ON-GOING INTERNATIONAL CASES (OUTSIDE OF THE CONTINENTAL USA) THAT I AM FOLLOWING ON THIS BLOG, AT THE LINK BELOW: HL:
https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/120008354894645705/4704913685758792985
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FINAL WORD: (Applicable to all of our wrongful conviction cases): "Whenever there is a wrongful conviction, it exposes errors in our criminal legal system, and we hope that this case — and lessons from it — can prevent future injustices."
Lawyer Radha Natarajan:
Executive Director: New England Innocence Project;
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FINAL, FINAL WORD: "Since its inception, the Innocence Project has pushed the criminal legal system to confront and correct the laws and policies that cause and contribute to wrongful convictions. They never shied away from the hard cases — the ones involving eyewitness identifications, confessions, and bite marks. Instead, in the course of presenting scientific evidence of innocence, they've exposed the unreliability of evidence that was, for centuries, deemed untouchable." So true!
Christina Swarns: Executive Director: The Innocence Project;
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YET ANOTHER FINAL WORD:
David Hammond, one of Broadwater's attorneys who sought his exoneration, told the Syracuse Post-Standard, "Sprinkle some junk science onto a faulty identification, and it's the perfect recipe for a wrongful conviction.
https://deadline.com/2021/11/alice-sebold-lucky-rape-conviction-overturned-anthony-broadwater-12348801
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SEE BREAKDOWN OF SOME OF THE ON-GOING INTERNATIONAL CASES (OUTSIDE OF THE CONTINENTAL USA) THAT I AM FOLLOWING ON THIS BLOG, AT THE LINK BELOW: HL:
https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/120008354894645705/4704913685758792985
---------------------------------------------------------------
FINAL WORD: (Applicable to all of our wrongful conviction cases): "Whenever there is a wrongful conviction, it exposes errors in our criminal legal system, and we hope that this case — and lessons from it — can prevent future injustices."
Lawyer Radha Natarajan:
Executive Director: New England Innocence Project;
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FINAL, FINAL WORD: "Since its inception, the Innocence Project has pushed the criminal legal system to confront and correct the laws and policies that cause and contribute to wrongful convictions. They never shied away from the hard cases — the ones involving eyewitness identifications, confessions, and bite marks. Instead, in the course of presenting scientific evidence of innocence, they've exposed the unreliability of evidence that was, for centuries, deemed untouchable." So true!
Christina Swarns: Executive Director: The Innocence Project;
————————————————————————————
YET ANOTHER FINAL WORD:
David Hammond, one of Broadwater's attorneys who sought his exoneration, told the Syracuse Post-Standard, "Sprinkle some junk science onto a faulty identification, and it's the perfect recipe for a wrongful conviction.
https://deadline.com/2021/11/alice-sebold-lucky-rape-conviction-overturned-anthony-broadwater-12348801
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