Part Eight: Interrogation Of An Innocent Woman: Comparison with Mullins-Johnson case; Reference To Smith To Extract Confession;

The police interrogations of Lianne Gagnon and Bill Mullins-Johnson (an innocent man) had one thing in common: In each of them the police used the fact that Dr. Charles Smith and other "experts" had been involved in the case in their bid to extract a confession.

In Nicholas' case, for example, Sergeant West tells Lianne:

"That's the end of it – you have to understand that these people, they’re professionals who – the pathologist, the head pathologist for Ontario.

I mean this is a man who’s not making idle speculation, this is a man who knows and who has empowered that knowledge to us that his death was not natural.

That’s the reality of it.

And I – I mean, I don’t ant to sit here and have, you know, endless rounds of speculation of what kind of natural things we both know that’s not true.

It wasn’t a natural death."

Similarly, the following exchange occurs during the post-arrest interrogation of Mullins-Johnson:

"Detective WELTON - Someone put too much pressure on her neck and chest, she couldn’t breathe and she died.

BILL - I didn’t do it.
. . . . .
Detective WELTON - Doctors are experts".

Later in the interrogation, Detective Welton returns to the same theme that experts are infallible(so why not confess?), as follows:

"Detective WELTON - Sometimes these things happen.

BILL - I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it.

Detective WELTON - More and more points to you.

BILL - I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it.

Detective WELTON - The experts are pointing towards you.

BILL - Could there be a small error in [the time of her] death? (There turned out to be a huge error in the expert's calculation of the time of Valin's death. H.L.);

Detective WELTON - Very small, it’s between 8:00 and 10:00 pm.

BILL - Could be wrong.

Detective WELTON - They can narrow it down pretty good. They can’t pinpoint exactly, but pretty close. They do it by taking her temperature. (If only that was the case! H.L.)

BILL - All I know is I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it.

For the benefit of the readers of this Blog, here is a portion of the interrogation of Bill Mullins-Johnson - an innocent man - by Sault Ste. Marie police.

To this Blogster it is notable that Mullins-Johnson does not at any time ask for a lawyer.

How many people in police custody after being charged with first-degree murder would allow the police to question them without the protection of a lawyer?

Likewise, Lianne Gagnon allows the police to question her thoroughly without either a lawyer or her parents being present - until the point where the two officers lean on her a bit too hard.

By way of context, at 6:30 p.m. Sgt. Welton arrested the Appellant for the first degree murder and aggravated sexual assault of Valin.

Mullins-Johnson called to his brother Paul (Valin's father) to find him a lawyer, and kept repeating “I didn’t do nothing”.

Once in the police car, he was described by the officers as crying, sobbing and hysterical.

En route to the police station, police notes indicate that he said:
– I didn’t do it

– I wouldn’t hurt that little girl

– You got nothing, you got fuck all, what have you got on me man, nothing, you got fuck all

– I didn’t touch her, she went to bed and that’s that.

At 6:40 p.m., in the booking room, the Appellant was told how Valin died, and at what time.

He replied:

I was doing dishes, watching TV. I put John to bed at 8:00.

Valin went to bed by herself. I was the only other person in the house.

He was then allowed to speak to his lawyer on the telephone.
At 7:07 p.m., Mr. Mullins-Johnson was spoken to by Sgt. Welton and P.C. Martynuck in an interview room.

Unfortunately, neither this interview nor any of the later ones were taped in any way.

Rather, as P.C. Martynuck wrote in her willsay, she recorded them “in her notebook to the best of [her] ability”.

Throughout this interview the Appellant continually protested his innocence.

Here is a portion of the transcript:

Detective WELTON - Could you help us in who did it?

BILL - Wasn’t me, wasn’t me, didn’t do it, didn’t do it. (pause) I just want to go to sleep.
. . . . .
Detective WELTON - Did you ever touch Valin?

BILL - Thought never crossed my mind.

Detective WELTON - Is there anything you want to ask me?
BILL - No.

Detective WELTON - Was Valin a good kid?

BILL - Sometimes, she had a zest for life.

Detective WELTON - Do you understand why you’re here?

BILL - Yeah, but I don’t want to be here.
. . . . .
Detective WELTON - What are you thinking?

BILL - Police force is a disgrace.

Detective WELTON - Why?

BILL - Cause it’s a disgrace. I’m innocent, I’m innocent.

Detective WELTON - But you don’t want to help us in who did it if it wasn’t you?
BILL - I’m innocent, I didn’t do anything

. . . . .
Detective WELTON - You live there Bill, why would anyone do this?

BILL - Sick, deranged.

Detective WELTON - Someone like that probably needs help.

BILL - (whispers) - Yeah

Detective WELTON - Do you get along with Kim?

BILL - Yeah;

Detective WELTON - What about Paul?

BILL - I live there don’t I. I wouldn’t live there if we didn’t get along.

The interview concluded at 7:34 pm. ..


At 10:26 p.m., the two officers tried again. The interview began:

Detective WELTON - How do you feel?

BILL - I didn’t do it.24
. . . . .
Detective WELTON - We know you did it.

BILL - I didn’t do it.

Detective WELTON - You know the sexual assault stuff happened.

BILL - I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it, I could be doing life for something I didn’t do.
Detective WELTON - If you didn’t do it, who did?

BILL - I put John to bed, went by Valin and shut the door, went down, did dishes.
. . . . .
Detective WELTON - Did you take a shower today?

BILL - Yeah.

Detective WELTON - I just asked, that’s all. What are you thinking?

BILL - Why this is happening. I didn’t do it man, I didn’t do it.

Detective WELTON - You know Valin has passed away.

BILL - Yeah, I know. I don’t know how.

Detective WELTON - What were you wearing last night?

BILL - This and this (indicating clothes he had on).

Detective WELTON - Who got the kids in bath and pyjamas?

BILL - Kim did.

Detective WELTON - If I told you Bill, that ah, someone has been sexually assaulting Valin for a long time, who would I talk to?

BILL - It wasn’t me.

I didn’t do it.

I don’t know.
I never ever sexually touched those kids in anyway.

The thought never crossed my mind.

I lost a niece man.

I know for a fact I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it, didn’t do it.

If you said someone’s been assaulting her I want to know.

Detective WELTON - We don’t know the family.


BILL - I don’t know. Valin is precious. Valin was, she is, how would I say this, Valin would go with anyone, she loved everyone. She’d go off with strangers.

. . . . .
Detective WELTON - Valin is a tiny girl.

BILL - She loved her Uncle Bill, she loved me because she loved me for me, she’d see me down the road, run up to me and say she loved me.

And all of that is gone?

People are saying I did it.

I’ll go to court for it. I didn’t do it.

I didn’t fuckin do it. I’ve been to court for 2 years, I’ll fuckin do it (Bill is very irate and upset at this point).

BILL - I’d never hurt a child.

Detective WELTON - If you want to tell me about you, go ahead.

BILL - Kids love me unconditionally. I love being around kids. I watch TV with them, especially Valin. She loved cartoons. I don’t know how she died.

Detective WELTON - She died of suffocation.

BILL - Kim told me she died when she puked.

Detective WELTON - Someone put too much pressure on her neck and chest, she couldn’t breathe and she died.

BILL - I didn’t do it.
. . . . .
Detective WELTON - Doctors are experts.

BILL - I don’t know. If she died between 8:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. (20:00 - 22:00 hours) I would have heard something.

I was there, left between 1:30 and 3:00 a.m. (01:30 and 03:00 hours).

Detective WELTON - Don’t get upset.

BILL - I didn’t do it.

Detective WELTON - Is it possible or have you ever done something and not remembered it?

BILL - No possibility, never happened.

Detective WELTON - Never blacked out?

BILL - Never, I’ll tell the Crown to fuck off.

If you want me to go to court and jail for society I will.

I loved her unconditionally. I’ll go to jail for her, but I didn’t do it. You’ve got to fuckin prove it.

I didn’t do it. I didn’t do it.

This hurt[s] too much.

Detective WELTON - I know it.

BILL - I dreamt about Valin.

She was at the cell door.

I just want whoever did this to be where I am, because I didn’t do it.
. . . . .
Detective WELTON -Black out, didn’t black out?

BILL - No, I put John to bed, shut Valin’s door, went downstairs, watched TV and did the dishes.

The Appellant asked Sgt. Welton:

BILL - Do you think this could be crib death?

Detective WELTON - No.

BILL - Freak accident?

Detective WELTON - No, this was someone using force.

BILL - I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it. I’m scared man, I don’t want to go to Kingston, I don’t want P.C. I don’t want no wacko ward.

Detective WELTON - Sometimes these things happen.
BILL - I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it.

Detective WELTON - More and more points to you.

BILL - I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it.

Detective WELTON - The experts are pointing towards you.

BILL - I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it. I don’t know what happened to her, if I knew, I would tell you. I wouldn’t go down for this for someone else. I want to go to bed. ..

The Appellant, who at this point was crying and, as was apparent to the police, very upset, was asked to review the interview that he had given to Sgt. Welton that morning. He did so and added:

BILL - When Valin was on the couch she covered up herself with a blanket.

She got it from the corner.

Detective WELTON - One of those ones you’d use [on] kids.

BILL - It was the one she was wrapped in, I used it on the couch. She was tired and walked up staggering. She was that tired.

P.C. Martynuck recorded that the Appellant “started crying softly when reading about finding Valin’s body”.

The Appellant reiterated that no one went upstairs while he was babysitting. The conversation continued:

BILL - Could there be a small error in [the time of her] death?

Detective WELTON - Very small, it’s between 8:00 and 10:00 pm.

BILL - Could be wrong.

Detective WELTON - They can narrow it down pretty good. They can’t pinpoint exactly, but pretty close. They do it by taking her temperature.

BILL - All I know is I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it.

At 11:17 pm. Sgt. Welton confronted the Appellant with the allegation that he had sexually assaulted Valin’s sister Jean.

The Appellant vehemently denied this as well.

Finally, at 11:47 pm, the officers gave up their questioning of him.

On Monday morning, Sgt. Welton and P.C. Martynuck spoke to the Appellant again:

Detective WELTON - We thought we’d give you opportunity to tell us.

BILL - I didn’t do it, I know I didn’t do it.

Detective WELTON - Well we talked about it.

BILL - I didn’t do it man, you know I didn’t.

Detective WELTON - All the evidence says you did it.

BILL - I didn’t do it.

The officers left the cell are at 7:35 a.m. and as they did so the Mullins-Johnson yelled at them:

"I didn’t do it."

In these two cases, the police played Smith and the "experts" who backed up his opinions like a trump card when they questioned their suspects;

There is a serious question as to how many others may have decided to plead guilty to lesser offences in relation to their dead children after their lawyer's warned them that they would likely be convicted of murder - and go to prison for life - after the judge or jury heard evidence from the renowned Dr. Smith.

Who could blame them?

Harold Levy...hlevy@gmail.com;